Unverified

Elaeocarpus obovatus or
Elaeocarpus reticulatus
?

Ref': https://plantnet.rbgsyd.nsw.gov.au/cgi-bin/NSWfl.pl?page=nswfl&lvl=gn&name=Elaeocarpus
.

@MartinPredavec . Good arvo.

Regarding _Elaeocarpus reticulatus_ species,
this appears somewhat different in overall form and in particular i haven't found any pulvini (plural of pulvinus ) on the leaves
(specifically a joint at the distal end of each petiole where it becomes the mid-vein through the lamina (blade) of each leaf,
including, usually swollen cross section diameter compared with the cross section diameter of the rest of the petiole and
may articulate allowing the leaf blade some limited more changing of its angle for its physiological purposes including photosynthesis, respiration, protection, etc. ).

Regarding _Elaeocarpus obovatus_, this looks really (much more) different, and of course closer to _Elaeocarpus reticulatus_.

Edit: I have checked the referenced sources more and provisionally confirm this identification pending your response(s). I can undo this identification if your response(s) require so.

Further ref':

• Harden Gwen, Hugh Nicholson, Bill McDonald, Nan Nicholson, Terry Tame and John Williams (2024) 

Rainforest Plants of Au : Rockhampton to Victoria .

Mobile devices (phones and tablets) app.: 

→ https://rainforests.net.au/product/rainforest-plants-of-australia-mobile-app/ 

→ https://rainforestpublishing.com.au/shop/rainforest-plants-of-australia-2-0-mobile-app/ 

Computer (desktops and laptops) software: 

→ https://rainforests.net.au/product/rainforest-plants-of-australia-desktop-app/  

→ https://rainforestpublishing.com.au/publications/ 

Viewed: 2025 June 7th .

@JasonPStewartNMsnc2016 Thank you for the detailed information and pointing me towards the PlantNet key. It's so very useful to understand how you came to the ID.

I've gone back to the plant and run through the key (some additional pictures above). My run through of the key is as follows.

1. Growing in NSW (2)
2. Mature leaves glabrous (4)
4. Leaves simple, petiole not swollen at junction with lamina (5)
5. Leaves finely and regularly toothed; secondary veins more than 9 pairs (6)
6. Domatia absent; petiole less than 10 mm long - Elaeocarpus holopetalus

So I come up with Elaeocarpus holopetalus. What do you think?

Wow interesting yeah i'm thinking and looking again.

I am familiar with _Elaeocarpus holopetalus_ (and more _Elaeocarpus_ spp.) in Vic. and south-eastern NSW up as far north as Sydney region.

Yet, I am not familiar with _Elaeocarpus holopetalus_ north nor inland of the NSW Central Coast region.
Hence, the _Elaeocarpus holopetalus_ trees i am familiar with have much smaller leaves in all proportions, including both in length and width, with clearly hairy undersides.

As the Flora of NSW online PlantNet, botanical key demonstrates and as the comprehensive description there of _Elaeocarpus holopetalus_ details, quotation:
"
Leaves simple,
lamina lanceolate to elliptic or obovate,
mostly 3–7 cm long (sometimes to 11 c. on juvenile shoots),
1–3 cm wide,
apex pointed,
margins distinctly and regularly toothed,
lower surface pubescent
**(some of the specimens from Barrington Tops and Point Lookout areas are ± glabrous)**,
domatia absent;
petiole 3–10 mm long.
" .

Now I'll check some more sources.

From your checking this plant again in the field,
can i confirm specific details you indicated from your steps through key, please?:
• these leaves have no hairs (or so very few) on their undersides ?
• these petioles measure less than 10mm long ?
• these petioles have no distal end swelling – aka pulvini ?
• not even tiny domatia ?

I'm considering young plant foliage re: _Elaeocarpus holopetalus_
including young sapling rainforest plants often have much larger leaves especially in semi-shade through to full shade conditions with sufficient soil moisture, (rather than exposed in full sun with dry soil or exposed in cold frost or snow conditions (physiological dryness)).

(So called 'juvenile plant(s)' <–some scientists' poor English language usage using a word specifically meant for young humans (etymology) – nowadays more appropriate as a word applying to people like bad pollies dump and musk! (humour attempt) )

Are these leaves on this plant really pliable in the hands or feel stiff ?

@JasonPStewartNMsnc2016 Thank you again.

• these leaves have no hairs (or so very few) on their undersides ? Correct - I would say no hairs. In terms of the broad distribution of Elaeocarpus holopetalus, I am close to Barrington Tops.
• these petioles measure less than 10mm long ? - The petioles are about 5mm
• these petioles have no distal end swelling – aka pulvini ? - no swelling
• not even tiny domatia ? - I've said no, but on closer inspection there may be very small ones. I've put a close up picture in the collection above.

Regarding the size of the leaves - they are about 7-8 cm long and 2-3 cm wide. A few of the leaves are pliable (they are the ones with a red tinge) but most are 'stiff'.

Alright. Wow thank you for responding with these fine–great! details !

I am conferring with more sources including this:

• Harden Gwen, Hugh Nicholson, Bill McDonald, Nan Nicholson, Terry Tame and John Williams (2024) 

Rainforest Plants of Au : Rockhampton to Victoria .

• these identification requests in FB NSW native plants ID group:
→ https://www.facebook.com/groups/332752936930981/posts/2758654974340753/
→ https://www.facebook.com/groups/332752936930981/posts/1286160494923549/
→ https://www.facebook.com/groups/332752936930981/posts/1289235571282708/

• and looking for further sources.

In the end i may use leaves venation patterns, species–signatures, to go further to identification.

It has made me start to wonder about the question of do hybrids ever occur between _Elaeocarpus holopetalus_ and _Elaeocarpus reticulatus_
eg. breeding systems compatibility and phenology timings,
or some genes' introgression of some genes of between them, between their usual habitat ranges.
–won't become an excuse to give up on identification as best as possible though, here.

Yeah thank you for the close-up photograph,
these do appear to me too:
hairless tiny foveoles, type of domatia .

I'll leave this confirmation of identification for just a few days, for me (or us) to have reflection on these considerations. Before going any further towards serious consideration of a hybrid.

In summary so far,
for examples' features for consideration:

• these lack of pulvini (on the petioles' distal ends),
• these 5mm short petioles,
• these leaves when they have grown out fully have stiffness,
• these leaves' regularly toothed margins all the way along,
fit the description of _Elaeocarpus holopetalus_

• at least to the eyes of us both, the apparent, hairless tiny foveoles, type of domatia,
fit the description of _Elaeocarpus reticulatus_

• these young plants leaves larger than mature leaves of _Elaeocarpus holopetalus_,
may fit the description of young vigorously growing _Elaeocarpus holopetalus_ plants
Young sapling rainforest plants often have much larger leaves, especially in semi-shade through to full shade and sufficient soil moisture conditions, (rather than exposed in full sun, with dry soil or exposed in cold frost or snow conditions (physiological dryness)).
Or may fit the description of _Elaeocarpus reticulatus_ (too easily here).

• the hairless, glabrous leaves including on their undersides,
May fit the documented glabrous form of _Elaeocarpus holopetalus_ in the region there,
Or may fit the not documented anywhere that i have yet found, botanical inferring towards hybridisation or introgression of parts of genes between these two 'species'.

Compare with the Plants of SE. NSW information pages:
• → https://apps.lucidcentral.org/plants_se_nsw/text/entities/elaeocarpus_holopetalus.htm
• → https://apps.lucidcentral.org/plants_se_nsw/text/entities/elaeocarpus_reticulatus.htm
.

Phylogenetics –interesting to have this added information,
quotation: "
Within the _Elaeocarpus_ clade, _E. holopetalus_ is resolved as a distinct lineage that is placed sister to the remainder of the taxa. Apart from _E. holopetalus_, a total of 13 main lineages or clades are resolved: ...
"
Phoon, Sook-Ngoh (2015)
Systematics and biogeography of _Elaeocarpus_ (Elaeocarpaceae).
PhD thesis, James Cook University.
https://researchonline.jcu.edu.au/43783/

Sharing seeking more evidences : https://www.facebook.com/groups/332752936930981/posts/2925113257694923/

Of course this sighting page has privacy kept – only us, you the author and moderators, can see the location information and the links to your sighting's private authorship.

With ease I will delete that FB post if you're not happy about it.

Good morning @JasonPStewartNMsnc2016 . I went yesterday back to the plant in the field and looked around for other individuals. I came across one larger plant (see Elaeocarpus reticulatus (Blueberry Ash, Fairy Petticoats)). This new observation keys out as Elaeocarpus reticulatus, with petiole swollen (slightly) near junction with lamina and small domatia. Interestingly, the leaves at the top of the plant were similar to the plant in this observation. So we may be back at the start with Elaeocarpus reticulatus, but with this observation being a smaller/younger individual.

Martin. Good morning ! ( @MartinPredavec )
Yeah.
You may have already seen my notes comment in that new sighting you have added.

The evidences of botanical features of both species do not go away here.

Fertile parts in the future of these two plants, flowers and then fruits, will clarify this.

Please keep eyes out for plants even more like _Elaeocarpus holopetalus_ .

Genes introgression occurs across many groups of vascular plants (much more frequently than across vertebrates' animals).
For an example scholarly review article, including deep evolutionary time of millions – tens of millions – hundreds of millions of years
–through to recent and current time of the dimensions of us, our human populations of tens – hundreds – thousands – tens of thousands of years:
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/tpj.16142
.